The Space Policy Show
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The Space Policy Show
Ep. 174: Go Army Space
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The US Army recently announced a Space Operations Branch, but space is not new to ground-based operations. So what is new? What do ground forces use space for, and how does is fit into the joint force that includes the US Space Force? What are future forward training and technology developments the US Army is looking at? In this episode, Senior Policy Analyst and former soldier, David Geye (CSPS), talks to US Army’s Col. Joseph Mroszczyk, Director, Transformation Integration Directorate for Space Superiority (TID-SS) within the Space and Missile Defense Center of Excellence and national president of the Association of the United States Army (AUSA).
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The Space Policy Show is produced by The Aerospace Corporation’s Center for Space Policy and Strategy. It is a virtual series covering a broad set of topics that span across the space enterprise. CSPS brings together experts from within Aerospace, the government, academia, business, nonprofits, and the national labs. The show and their podcasts are an opportunity to learn about and to stay engaged with the larger space policy community.
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A lot of what the Army brings to the joint force a lot of times is our ability to plan in detail and make sure that we can close logistics at scale. And we bring that expertise into the space arena as well. And so we help the other services as everything that we do starts and stops on the ground. Every service really starts and stops on the ground. We just also operate on the ground. Everybody lives on the ground, right? Forget that. Everybody looks at Bitcom and you see this big body of water. But nobody nobody lives there.
SPEAKER_00I'm calling Stover with the Center for Space Policy and Strategy, part of the Aerospace Corporation. And this is episode 174. Can you believe it? We are one of the longest-running public comments about space publicity ever. You can watch and listen to the public shows just a bit anywhere, or you can get notified to come in and see if it's not overcome. So recently the Army and then space and permission's commitment. Well, the Army's police is not known. So we invited Colonel Joseph Murmansick from the U.S. Army's Space and Missile Defense Command to come in. Hosted by David Gone, senior analyst of the Senate's strategic futures group. Colonel Murmanzik goes deep into the Army's tactical use of space, how it's different from the Space Force, how training is applied to force readiness, and even a look at future possibilities. Okay, let's go over to David and the Colonel now.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Colleen. I am here with Colonel Joe Morozic. Do you mind if I call you Joe? Absolutely fine. Okay. Um before we get started, I just want to note that Joe is the first Army guest on Space Policy Show. And speaking as a retired Army Warren Officer, I'm really excited that this is happening on the episode I get to host. And it's about darn time. And we should probably do it again soon.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate that, David. I'm really excited to be the first Army guy, being able to talk about what we're doing for Army Space and being on the show, recognizing I've got a former soldier uh helping with that is is important to me. So I appreciate you and the aerospace folks for having me on.
SPEAKER_02Of course. We're happy to have you here. So before we get really started, can you give us a little background about yourself to set the tone for your involvement with Army Space?
SPEAKER_01Sure, you know, I know folks are probably wondering why a soldier is on an Army Space Policy show. So I've been an Army Space Operations officer since 2012. I switched over uh after uh field artillery battery command. Uh I was a field artillery officer before, and the Army has had Army space operations for a while as a functional area. And so I switched over to really space to try to expand my horizons within the Army as to what I was able to do. And I've had multiple different job opportunities as a space officer since then to include at the Army, Space and Missile Defense Command, working for the Deputy Commanding General for Operations, working for the Commanding General, being a detachment commander. And I've I've spent a few years even in the Pentagon on the headquarters of the Air Force staff. So I was up there in their policy shop under the then Secretary Wilson from 2016 to 2019, and I helped stand up the Space Force as part of the initial Space Force Planning Task Force. Um, trying to give a little bit of a joint perspective there and provide Army expertise as the command and control branch chief for space control. Um so I've I've been able to see what all of the services were up to, at least at that given time, uh, as we were standing up Space Com and standing up the Space Force. Uh it's given me a good background as I've then transitioned back to the Army formation and helping with space inner integration, bringing in space capabilities, and then space interdiction as being able to help. How do we impact the enemy's use of space as well?
SPEAKER_02Okay. So moving forward from that and expanding a little bit. Walk us through the Army space operations now that it's a branch. Can you tell us what it is and just as importantly what it's not?
SPEAKER_01Sure, absolutely. So I think it's important to recognize in 2023, the Secretary, Chief of Staff of the Army, and Sergeant Major of the Army signed a memo of called the Army Space Vision. That Army Space Vision really laid out the two main tenets of Army Space Operations, which is to integrate capabilities across all of our warfighting functions and to be able to interdict capabilities that the adversary uses for their reliance on space, right? Their space-enabled attack. And so growing from there, the Army had recognized as well that we had a problem with the enlisted soldiers as we were building out space capability within the Army. We had a trouble of maintaining the really level of expertise and having that non-commissioned officer who is your master gunner, right? Your trainer of younger soldiers. That non-commissioned officer would come into the unit at the same time as his junior enlisted soldier, and the officers would end up being more of the expert because we had been trained in space. And so they'd come into a space unit, and then the officers would train the NCOs on what they needed to understand, and it wasn't your traditional army training mindset and it's kind of upside down. Exactly. And so we would only ever get good enough to their tour in that unit, and then they'd go back to their prior career field.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01So they're they, if they were an air defender or an Intel soldier, they'd go back to Intel or Air Defense, and we'd get a new soldier into the space formation to be able to perform that function, we'd have to train them back up. Start over. Right. Um, so what we've done with the branch is we've expanded to include a new MOS, uh, uh a new career field that we call 40 Delta. And that career field is for those enlisted soldiers to be able to transvision uh transition among only space units. Okay. And those space spillets so that they can get to a higher level and really elevate our profession within the army.
SPEAKER_02So they have a promotion, they now have a promotion sequence that is entirely within the branch.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Okay. And so we're we're assessing soldiers at all ranks coming in really. Um we're not starting out from enlisted, you know, an initial entry because we're we're waiting for them to have a first assignment to get their their advanced training under underway, so that we're assessing those soldiers after they have a foundational army construct under their belt.
SPEAKER_02Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_01And then we're bringing them in so that they can then become space operations soldiers.
SPEAKER_02So they understand how to think army first and then think army space next.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And that's a key important aspect of what we bring from an army space perspective, is we are grown in the fundamentals of shoot, move, and communicate. You know, we have a foundation in the army where we're the land force, right? For the joint force. And so when we talk about operations incident to the land, we leverage space as part of an integration capability across all of our different warfighting functions. We have them for a good portion of the kit that's out there is space enabled, whether it's for position navigation timing, for Intel surveillance and reconnaissance, or satellite communications for beyond the line of sight communications, missile warning, all of that is enabled by the space architecture that is provided by the Intel community, commercial, and the Space Force. We leverage that and integrate that into the formations we support.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01On the other side of that vision, we interdict the enemy's dependence on that same capability. As we talk about force projection, what enables us to be able to go beyond line of sight outside of our normal bubble is the space capabilities. And both Russia and China have it really invested in being able to leverage that capability as as well as many other uh countries and nations out there.
SPEAKER_02So you've you've in part, I think, answered the second question. But can you speak more to the why of it? Why does the Army need this capability when Space Force exists as an example? Um what do you what's what are the unique needs of the ground force that cannot be provided or by the other services?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so the branch is is really trying to provide a focus and a capability using the unique positioning that we get from the land.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Right? Uh we have maneuver formations that are going to be at the forward edge of the battle, if we still have a forward edge of battle, right, with the way that we talk about current conflicts. Um, but they're gonna be out there and and they're gonna need some integration capabilities. Largely that is being normalized across the rest of the staff. On an army formation, the Intel function helps with space-based ISR or Intel surveillance and reconnaissance. The communications team will will help with satellite communications and planning for that. So those are other staff sections that really are using the space capabilities directly. What our branch is going to enable is really the expansion of how we interdict the enemy formations that we're expected to fight against, their use of space-enabled capabilities. And so if I am a brigade combat team fighting an enemy division, and that enemy division uses ISR and SATCOM and position navigation timing capabilities, I need to be able to remove that advantage from them and ensure that my advantage is greater. And so that's when we talk about space superiority in the joint lexicon and what we care about, it's the relative advantage that we have over another um nation's use of space. Right? And so our relative advantage depends on how much we can deny their use or impact and disrupt whatever word uh effect you're going for uh compared to how much we improve our use of it.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So it's a relative measure.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And you mentioned current conflicts and the idea of the forward edge battle going away. Let's take Ukraine war as an example. Has that influenced how the Army views space and its tactical operations?
SPEAKER_01So I think we we've had lessons learned for the Army. The Center for Army Lessons Learned has transitioned recently to the transformation lessons learned manager for the Army. Um but as we as we've done that, we've learned from conflicts throughout our history, right? Okay. So the Ukraine conflict is another recent example. Um and I think it's important to couch that that that conflict is Russia against a much smaller nation.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right? And and um when we're looking at the lessons that we're learning from that, it's important that we don't directly mirror that for the army, the U.S. Army, which is the premier land fighting force in the world, uh, to say that the lessons are a direct application.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01I think there are lessons that we're pulling out of there, though, about specifically how Russia uh has tried to deny Ukrainian use of space. They've they've tried to inhibit their ability to leverage that. Uh, and Ukraine, uh, with commercial support, great commercial support, has been very um flexible in the way that they've leveraged um kind of innovation and commercial uh work from multiple different organizations to try to really overcome that and provide an advantage on their side. And I think they've used it very well to their advantage in terms of how they have enabled uh deep strikes into Russia using space-based ISR, using beyond line of sight satellite communications. We have evidence of them using um multiple different commercial SATCOM capabilities to be able to get their one-way attack capabilities, not just the fiber optic enabled drones, but uh other one-way attack capabilities, the position navigation timing that's enabled for precision attacks. All of that has been integrated into the Ukrainian forces as well. And they're doing that at speed and they're innovating with different technology, and so they're doing that in a true contested environment, though. Russia has provided a very difficult and challenging threat, right? Um, they're a very capable formation in terms of their electromagnetic warfare. So when we think of the ability to communicate at distance, uh Russia's ability to challenge that has come to bear over the years, and we're watching how they adapt from a Ukrainian perspective. That's helping us understand how do we do things like make our formations more survivable, dispersible, mobile, to be able to um counter some of the counterfire type things that you'd expect from uh an enemy force that's space savvy.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Shifting back to the branch itself. How's the branch going to be staffed? Right? Is there a possibility the army receives graduates from the newly announced Space Academy, or is that a separate effort?
SPEAKER_01No, this the the Space Academy announcement is so new, I don't know as if we've we've even looked at that from an army perspective. Um I think the the cadre that we are staffing, what our our space and missile defense command and the schoolhouse is doing is building the the expertise and the capacity to increase what they have done for Army space training.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01You know, we've had a center of excellence within the Space and Missile Defense Command for a bit now, who has trained our space operations officers and enlisted soldiers who have come through for different mission sets. So what the schoolhouse has done over the last couple years is build that pipeline, build the capacity so that we can, as we expand now to have a new MOS, how do they build the transition course that takes an Intel or an air defense or even an infantry soldier and make them a space operations soldier? Um so they've built that pipeline out. That's that's going to be in Colorado Springs, is where our uh Center of Excellence is. And so soldiers will will go there, they'll get their transition course, and then they'll be assigned out to the various army units where we'll have 40 Delta uh space operations soldier billets and then uh 40 alpha space operations officers. There are there are multiple formations across the Army that are just space focus. You know, it started out uh within Army Space, really under Space and Missile Defense Command with the 1st Space Brigade. Right, and that that has uh adjusted over time to recently we established the multi-domain effects battalions and the multi-domain task forces, and now recently a multi-domain command, um which all has space capability built into that formation. And that includes, when I when I when I talk about space capability, uh near space capability or or space-like capabilities from the stratosphere. So that's another key piece of our branch that we're expanding really emphasis on is stratospheric operations. So one of the things that I'm the proponent for within SMDC is that high altitude space and navigation warfare. So those are the three main missions when we're talking about expanding the branch focus that I lean hard into. Stratospheric operations when we talk about that, and and I say stratospheric to make it less confusing because sometimes we've heard you know heard people are confused when we say high altitude. What altitude do you mean?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01We really mean that area of 60,000 to 100,000 feet above the ground that is considered the stratosphere.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And there's unique properties of the winds up there, uh, which are a little more conducive to sustained kind of operations, where we can have kind of extended duration platforms that survive and provide a coverage that is very space-like in capability from the stratosphere. And that's why it aligns to a space person, because we can use it for all of the same functions that you would from a space capability on orbit.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02And the army, excuse me. So you are the proponent, the army. Army space is the proponent for that. Does that involve launching from forward areas or from anywhere, or how?
SPEAKER_01So we're looking at the the concept of operations to enable multiple kinds of things there. So we have a family of systems that we're looking at, really a spectrum of capabilities, from small to larger systems that are both short duration and long duration uh high-altitude platforms. And we're mostly looking at those lighter-than-air capabilities, balloons.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh there are some heavier-than-air concepts out there that are fairly nascent still, uh, that are looking to get into the space. And we've done some um sponsored experimentation with those types of platforms as well. But the most uh recent experimentation and most high uh technology readiness capabilities are those balloon platforms.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so when you think of things that could be launched from the United States, there are larger platforms that have survived um global operations essentially to provide near persistence, months of duration with multiple payloads capable under those larger platforms. And then there are more tactically responsive size things that a team of soldiers can deploy.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so in in one of my former roles, I was the first multi-domain effects battalion commander out at Joint Base Lewis McCordon. So I had a high-altitude platoon in that formation. We actually built force structures specific to be able to launch balloons. And they trained with multiple vendors' platforms on how to launch, actually fly, because these things are capable of station-seeking, not station keeping, right now, but you can take advantage of the winds to kind of keep things steered a certain way.
SPEAKER_02Station is an area, not necessarily a point.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And and it's different than you would think of uh an unmanned aerial system that flies a specific route with waypoints. This is more of I have a general corridor that I'm going to be able to keep this aligned to. Okay. And I might be able to keep it in a target area, take advantage of raising and lower its altitude to take advantage of different direction winds. And using that, you can kind of keep the payload over a certain a certain area to be able to extend communications, to be able to conduct semi-persistent sensing, uh, or even electromagnetic warfare or launched effects uh delivery, where I'm getting deeper into a battle space using these stratospheric operations capabilities.
SPEAKER_03Oh.
SPEAKER_02That actually that's really cool. That's a I know that's a I know that's a very specific part of army space that not a lot of people are aware of. Yes. Thank you for bringing that out. Um and you talk expanding on the idea of those capabilities, looking ahead. What sort of capabilities, like now and in the future, is the new branch looking at? And maybe even with regard to some of its staffing, what do you think success might look like? So I think we're five years on or so.
SPEAKER_01No, that's that's a great question. I think one of the things that I again continue to harp on is our unique position advantage from the Army is survivability on the land. Right? A lot of the the enemy's anti-access area denial focus is keeping the Air Force and the Navy out of the fight as much as possible. Right. And so our job on the land is to be able to help be survivable and help get the joint force back into that fight.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01That is part of the construct of these multi-domain uh battalions and task forces, is to be able to really help be part of that stand-in force along with the Marine Corps and the littorals, to be able to get the rest of the joint force back into the fight and then execute those abilities to exploit the windows provided. When we talk about the Army space capabilities contributing to that, the ability to interdict adversary space capabilities, whether it's um space-based surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities, or uh uh enemy SATCOM or enemy nav uh position navigation and timing, that's really where we're trying to grow the ability to proliferate that across the army. And and we have formations and structures, like I mentioned, that are currently already out there. Those are going to grow over the next couple years as we build the branch and start to populate those formations with capabilities.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So, Joe. I want to circle back to the question about the distinction between Army Space and Space Force or the other services. I know that I know that the Army gave up some capabilities or signed over some capabilities to Space Force. And how does that it sound like a loss, but in but as you move forward through the space vision, is it enabler? Did it actually help? How how how do you distinguish yourselves?
SPEAKER_01No, I think that's an an important point to bring up. So again, I mentioned I was part of the headquarters Air Force when the Space Force was stood up. I was part of the discussions as the studies were going on over what roles and functions should move and what the Army would keep. And I think what we what we basically where the department cut the line was those things that were on orbit in domain capabilities, uh controlling of satellites, that should be the Space Force.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And being able to take advantage of those things that were fixed-site things that did that type of function. Like the Army formerly was the consolidated SATCOM system expert for wide-band global SATCOM. So we operated the payload on orbit for the wideband global SATCCOM system. We handed that off as part of the stand-up of the Space Force. And so the Space Force has all of the different SATCOM responsibilities now that the Army had stood up at a satellite operations brigade that that moved over.
SPEAKER_03Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_01That function, including the training and and all of the back-end pieces of that. And the same thing for the Joint Tactical Ground Station that takes advantage of the overhead persistent infrared satellites and being able to do missile warning for the theater. That capability, again, really taking advantage of what's on orbit from a missile warning perspective, fit better into the Space Forces kind of mission set. And so they have taken that as well.
SPEAKER_02So on orbit and in space, Space Force business, ground enablement or interdiction of space, army business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we fight through space. We don't control things on orbit. Okay. So whereas, you know, before the space force was established, there was look at the army, maybe we we buy our own satellites to be able to provide tactical uh ISR from space. That that, as the space force was established, was shifted, the army said, no, we're gonna focus on our core competencies, which is to fight from the land through space, right, to ground, right? Because it's all about the ground fight for us. And to be fair, we want to be able to fight from the ground to all domains, right? I think when we talk multi-domain and the the joint forces joint all domain operations concept is for all services to take advantage of cross-domain fires. What that means is I want to be able to fire from any domain to another domain, and the service whose job it is to fight in that domain is the one that should execute that. So if I'm on the sea as the Navy, I need to be able to shoot into the air, right, and to be able to destroy air threats, I need to be able to shoot surface, subsurface in my own domain and maneuver in that domain to be able to take advantage of that. General Zellman at the recent Space and Missile Defense Symposium mentioned that he wants he needs the Navy to be able to take advantage of their position on the ocean to be able to engage satellites. Like that ability, positional advantage that each of the services has enables us to be able to contribute to the joint fight. Because it's always going to be a joint fight. And so that's another distinction, right? Um, spacecom has the joint fight responsibility. Their responsibility for the joint fight is in orbit, though, right? Their area of responsibility is in the space domain. We as the army are not going to fight in the space domain, that's the space forces fight in the domain.
SPEAKER_02But we as the army can contribute to that from the ground through this cross-domain fires concept that you're talking about from forward-deployed units there maneuvering it. Exactly. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um so you wouldn't, it's not foreign to anybody to think of an army having, you know, uh an artillery battery engage a ship on the ocean.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Right? That that makes sense. It's it's cross-domain fires that way. Uh that same construct exists for us to be able to do that in the cyber domain, in the space domain, or in the air domain. And so I think you're you're familiar with the Army's Air and Missile Defense Command.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right? Those those theater-focused uh double AMDCs provide that missile defense uh capability, and they do it with the Air Force to be able to engage targets in the air, right? Threats in the air. Uh we're just expanding that to include all domains. It's just part of the natural evolution of all of the services to be able to have an all-domain capability, but each of the services is tasked in law and policy to be a physical domain-focused organization, right? We organize, train, and equip the joint force for operations incident to the land is our mission in law and in policy. You know, we the each of the services has some space capabilities. One of the things that uh the Army's also proud of, I think is I would be remiss if I didn't mention it, is our astronauts. You know, we just had uh Colonel Colonel Frank Rubio selected for the Artemis III mission uh with NASA. So he'll be an army astronaut going around the moon there on that mission. Uh, and and that's a significant thing for us to be proud of. And and our Space and Missile Defense Command, Deputy Commanding General for Operations, uh, Breeder General Drew Morgan, was an astronaut as well. Okay, and had commanded the ISS previously as a West Point graduate and and you know special operator, and and uh he has since shifted back to the operational force in the Army and is and took over as the DCGO for S uh Space and Missile Defense Command.
SPEAKER_02I know that the astronaut population overall is small, and the Army's population within that population is small, but when they come back to the force, do they bring a value with them from that experience?
SPEAKER_01What what so General Morgan is incredibly unique and and talented in his ability to bring back what he has learned and done at NASA back to the operational army. And uh I think he is, if I'm not mistaken, one of the first ones to actually transition from astronaut status back to operational status within the army. Um so we're learning from that, um, but I think he's done incredibly well. He was the commander at uh quadrillion atoll when they they had that issue with the the wave down there that caused problems. Uh and so he he was the uh the garrison commander on site that helped with that situation. You know, we have space fence down there from the space force. We have Reagan Test Site, which the Army operates, which is a contributing sensor for space domain awareness. Okay. Also does missile defense and and testing down there at Reagan Test Site and the Republic of the Marshall Islands. Uh we have that very small kind of footprint, but it's very strategically important uh for the nation. Um and and so he got to get that experience before he then became the White Sands Missile Range commander uh out there and got other exposure to the broader, broader capabilities that the Army tests out there at WISMER before coming into the DCGO role. Okay. Again, it's he's had a couple other assignments since coming out of uh astronaut role, and and this has just been great to see him move in. And he is also uh a great proponent for what we're doing to expand stratospheric operations uh and space interdiction moving forward.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Let's expand on that just a little bit through the through the lens of training. So the Center of Exodus is is in Fort Carson.
SPEAKER_01So in the city of the city. So um, and and it's a minor distinction. We have some some facilities off of Fort Carson that we okay we use for the schoolhouse uh where they train soldiers.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And and they train more than just soldiers too.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um so we'll expand on that a little bit, please. The the commandant for our center of excellence there, Colonel Felix Torres, runs um really that that professionalization of of our branch. But he's responsible for that school that has brought in Marines over the past. We've brought in um some Navy folks, and actually some guardians have come into some of our training as well. Um, but we run that schoolhouse and and again when I say center of excellence, we have some of the best trainers there at that school to really build the foundation and the fundamentals for how we operate and integrate capabilities across space formations. Um, because we've been doing it for quite a while, the other services have specifically really the Marines have have been really interested in in leveraging that capability. You know, Marines is a much smaller service, yes, can't necessarily afford to build their own schoolhouse, and it doesn't necessarily make sense. Uh so another ground for focused formation can come in and take advantage of the training that we provide.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Which has the value of also yes, you're both ground, but you're different types of ground. They understand your contribution, and this gets to a greater understanding of this cross-domain fires concept that you mentioned earlier. Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's an important thing too. The distinction between what we do in the Army and our focus on the land domain, the Marines, again, part of that amphibious force focused on the littorals, uh, when we talk about what their focus is, it's a little different. But again, the positional advantage is important because as they operate from that location, it's important they can interdict space capabilities or be able to take advantage of them as well, uh, as part of the Marine Littoral Regiments and what they're building over there in the Marine Corps. And we we do a lot of great collaboration across the services to make sure that we're not being redundant in what we're providing. Um, so we've had I've had discussions with folks uh along with the first Space Brigade commander and his team with uh Space Force Delta 3, the mission delta. Um I've talked with some of the systems deltas out there who are building capabilities to make sure as I'm looking at capabilities for the Army that we're taking advantage of investments that are being made across the department and that we're we're sharing those types of lessons as we identified.
SPEAKER_02Complementary, but not not redundant, exactly, which is physical responsibility and and among others. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And and there's a key aspect there where when we talk about the complementary roles, that goes back into the joint kind of fighting capability. And I think it's important to note that what we have contributed in recent joint operations, what what has happened in Operation Enduring Freedom, what we had done uh in Southcom when we're talking about being able to help contribute to that fight, Army space operators not only contributed on the ground uh for for what you had heard the chairman and others recognize as key contributions to the fight, but we helped orchestrate, plan, and execute a lot of that across echelons behind the scenes. Uh a lot of what the Army brings to the joint force a lot of times is our ability to plan in detail and make sure that we can close logistics at scale.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh and we bring that expertise into the space arena as well. And so we help the other services. As everything that we do starts and stops on the ground, every service really starts and stops on the ground. We just also operate on the ground. Right? Everybody lives on the ground, right? People forget that. Everybody looks at PACOM and you see this big body of water. That no one lives there. Nobody lives there. Okay, so when we talk about where the fight's gotta finish, it's gotta be on the land. And so we're there, and we're gonna be part of that fight uh regardless of how much of it takes place off the land. That's gonna be a key aspect of how we finish.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Let's circle back to the Center of Excellence and the training that it offers. You mentioned the other services, but the branch, the formalization of the branch now gives you a traditional military PME, professional military education pipeline. So some of our audience may not know all the different schools that are involved in that. Can you talk through that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Sure, absolutely. So as I mentioned, our our 40 Delta soldiers are not going to start out 40 Delta soldiers, at least not yet. Um because it's gonna take us some time to build out some more of that that pipeline. But normally a soldier, when they start in in a certain career field, they'll go to their basic training, they'll go to an advanced individual training, and then they'll go to different other gates throughout their career. So the senior leader course, advanced leader course are things that a branch usually controls and owns and builds that pipeline out. And that's as a soldier becomes a non-commissioned officer and then a senior non-commissioned officer, those are different gates. Um, we have the same thing from a professional military education for officers. So I go to uh basic officer leader course, uh career course as a captain, intermediate level education, and then senior service college type thing. Those gates will still exist for our branch and we'll leverage the broader uh service construct for the officer PME, professional military education aspects of that. Um but we will have space focused curriculum that the schoolhouse will provide. And those gates, after we do the transition course for an enlisted soldier, will build to be able to have a space senior leader course, okay, advanced senior leader course, and build that not non-commissioned officer and senior non-commissioned officer space focused leader so that they can continue the promotion tracks and be competitive with their peers in the other branches.
SPEAKER_02So you mentioned the transition course. Your first transition course, if I understand, starts in October.
SPEAKER_01So the the the MOS for 40 Delta goes live in October. And that's something that it's really a you know, we talk about the fiscal year, right? And so the fiscal year changeover FY27 starting in October is when on all of the Army's books, billets that were previously an Intel billet or uh uh air defense or or communications billet will become the 40 Delta Space Operations billet.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and that's it, the multiple formations. But as we talk about those those formations that are out there, there's there's billets at the divisions, the corps, at the multi-domain commands, and and those all have 40 delta positions that'll be part of it. The schoolhouse is gonna start training in 27 to be able to do that transition course uh for those soldiers that have been identified. And it's gonna be multiple kind of groups of soldiers that are getting brought over from the other MOSs, it's not all at once. Um, and we're gonna maintain a pipeline from other other MOSs throughout the the time that we have this.
SPEAKER_02Okay. My son is in 11 series, he might be interested in this sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01And and it's possible. Uh I think we have we have a great benefit of being choosy. Um not snobby, but choosy, um, to make sure that we're getting the right talent to be a space operations uh person. And and it's not it's not just intellect-based, right? It's not that you have to be able to understand, you know, Keplerian physics uh to be a space operator. But there is an aspect of being a quality soldier who's willing to do the job and learn uh that we're after, and that's at all ranks, and making sure that if it's we're pulling over leaders, that they're a good leader, that they're a good soldier first. Um, and again, that's that's what we've brought to the joint force as a former FA 40, Functional Area 40, space officer, now 40 Alpha. Um one of our points of pride is that we were usually in combat arms or some other um branch before we started as space. And so we understand the critical aspects, like we understand the critical aspects that we depend on for space and and why it's important. I'll give you my my little war story, my space war story. Before I became a space operations officer, I was an artillery battery commander in Afghanistan. And in 2011, we had a platoon uh artillery raid that we conducted near the border of Pakistan that we were supporting a division clearance operation. I had no idea at the time how reliant or enabled I was on space for that operation. And it was the pre-mission planning, doing the the survey. I had the geospatial intelligence team from the G2 help me with the terrain and being able to understand where I could place guns on top of this mountain, where were the potential infiltration routes, or the vegetation and some of the some of those other things. There was multiple different space-based capabilities that enabled that. When I started to go in and do the ingress uh, after we had figured out that the weather was good using space assets, we we had communications because it was beyond traditional radio range. We were using UHF SATCOM. We were using uh a Ridium-based communications device that also provided position navigation timing so I could populate the Blue Force tracker, which is space enabled, with where my position was. I was using that architecture to be able to get my weather data because I couldn't get network access for the internet. Okay. We used a text message over the Blue Force tracker to get my weather data so that I had accurate artillery fire. I used that along with uh some relay of capability as a really emergency backup through aviation assets, but all of that was space enabled. Laying my guns, I had uh a gun laying positioning system that was GPS enabled to be able to make sure that they were in the right position. My Ford observers uses used the same thing for making sure the targets that they observed were right. So there was a lot of things that I just had no appreciation for at the time that were all enabled by space. Uh and that includes some of the intelligence that enabled us to understand where some of the threats were moving and where we had to be able to orient our target set and have our observers looking for for potential bands of insurgents.
SPEAKER_02It's funny, I heard this recently. Someone said, wherever you go, space is close. That's true. And some people don't think about it that way, but it is.
SPEAKER_01And and and I think that's that's just stuck with me, and so I just I realize as we look at different systems how enabled we are across the 80% or more of the pieces of kit that we have in a brigade are space enabled or space-dependent devices. And when you think about the investment, you know, a lot of times people talk about uh investment in the space force to provide the capability. The army is the biggest service, yes, and therefore the biggest user of space capabilities. And the investment that the army has put into all of the use of space is significant. I uh I do not know the dollar figure because it would be very difficult to actually track. Because, like I said, that 80% when you schedule when you when you scale that across the the brigades in the army and the divisions and the corps and all of the munitions that are enabled for precision munitions, um that's a significant investment on being able to use space. And we want to make sure that that gives us that asymmetric advantage and and that we take that same advantage away.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much, Joe. That's been a great conversation. But before I let you go, I'd like to ask about AUSA. Okay. For those not familiar, that's the Association of the United States Army. They have their annual event at the Washington Convention Center every fall. Um does Army Space have any content plan for this year's event?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the Army Space will be throughout the event, right? There will be, as I mentioned, we're enabled through all of the capabilities that are gonna be on display there. And there are gonna be Army Senior Leaders there that I would encourage the audience and and folks to be able to go and ask questions about Army Space and and uh try to try to encourage that continued conversation from this. Um, but we're gonna have um the Army Space Professionals Association is gonna be hosting a booth as a partner association with the Association of the U.S. Army. Uh there's gonna be other uh subordinate or or kind of related um partner associations there as well. Okay. Um and they will have, I'm sure, some swag or something, but folks there able to answer questions about Army Space as a permanent fixture. But again, senior leaders throughout the symposium will be out there and and conducting industry engagements and uh trying to understand really what the needs are uh from an information perspective.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I am registered, I'll be there. It'll be interesting to look at those pieces through the lens of Army Space, which I wasn't able to do previously.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and and I'll be there as well. So um walking the floor and and trying to help answer questions for folks. So if anybody has any, I'm I'm happy to follow up on anything that comes up.
SPEAKER_02Okay, wonderful. Thank you again, Joe. Absolutely. Thanks to you, Colleen.
SPEAKER_00Thank you to David and the Colonel for that. I learned a limit, as usual. He's our first army guest, and I'm sure not the last. I hope you do brings our other shows discussing living space from national security to science and technology and governance and regulation from across the globe. Remember, you can find the center's deep research papers at CSP as for those of you watching the video, if you like the new look, let us know.